Wednesday, October 05, 2005

Environmentalism: Do the Trees Hug Back?



Warning: This is a loooooong post.

Once, at the youth centre I run, there was a cockroach. Not inside - we're a bit too clean for that - but out on the pavement, wandering around, doing his/her little cockroach thing. I watched it for a minute, fascinated. Bugs usually fascinate me, except for spiders. Can't abide spiders.

Anyway, I watched it for a bit longer, then decided to strike up a chat about nature with some of our teens (as most drop-in workers will tell you, any conversation that isn't about cars, music or video games are always a treat). I then pointed it out to a nearby teen. "Hey look," I said. "A cockroach."

Someday, I'll have to apologize to that cockroach. Wherever he is.

Within seconds an impromptu war party was formed with a singular purpose: the systematic hunting down, torture, and destruction of said cockroach and any of its family that had the misfortune to be in the immediate area. The next 45 minutes were spent (by me) frantically trying to herd local wildlife away from the drop-in, while echoes of stomping feet (by the war party) echoed in the distance. A few minutes after Our Friend the cockroach had been sent to an untimely and decidely two-dimensional end, some of the other youth decided their newfound martial skills could be put to use against squirrels, birds, stray cats, etc. Needless to say, this was a time of high stress, for me as well as the unfortunate local fauna.

In the midst of all this, one of my volunteers - an older gentleman with a great sense of humour - jokingly called me a "druid," due to my efforts to protect what little nature surrounded us. Now, I'm not a druid - at least, not it the long whiskers and moonlit ritual sense, nor in the D&D "True Neutral" sense (props to anyone who understood that). And I'm not a druid in the contemporary sense, aligning myself with the pagan movement (which Wanderer will know much more about than I, I would assume). But despite that I still feel a great deal of care towards the Earth and her creatures.

I was really spoiled growing up. Not in the sense that I got anything I wanted, though. No, I was spoiled because my parents had a cabin at a lake near West Hawk in Ontario. It was a 2-hour drive from our house to the main dock, then a 15 minute boat ride to the cabin itself. And then... And then, you were surrounded by the Canadian Shield, with nothing but bush for miles. This might be a cause of stress to some, but to us it was Heaven.

I spent long days and weeks there during the summer. I hiked through the bush, I went swimming and exploring. I sat and read against an oak tree. I climbed the cliffs that were on either side of the lake and watched the sunset from above the trees. I walked past a stag - easily a 14-pointer, with a chest as broad as you've ever seen - as he stood on a rock shelf above me, watching me pass, and I felt strangely humbled and honoured in that moment. I can't tell you how much it means to me to have that place. It is a "thin" place, as my Celtic ancestors would call it; that is, the veil between myself and God seemed translucent, as though we were closer there than anywhere else.

I spent alot of time reading when I was there. Not just the sci-fi/fantasy novels that awkward teens like me often read, but books on biology, natural science, and several articles by David Suzuki, the Canadian environmentalist. I even read some work by the original Grey Owl, if you can believe that. That greatly shaped my understanding of the world, and when I later became a Christian I often regarded with perplexment the doctrine that the Earth was "fallen."

I simply did not understand. How did the Fall of Man - the effects of which were plain for anyone to see in human nature - suddenly make the whole world go bad? I had an older Christian man explain to me that before the Fall, no animal harmed another and everything ate plants. This I was quite skeptical about. Why did some animals have claws and sharp teeth, then? For especially troublesome plants? And why then would plants have built-in defenses, like thorns or poison, if they were meant to be eaten? Or did all of these features appear the moment the forbidden fruit was taken? Wicked raw deal if you were the antelope grazing peacefully next to the lion when his claws appeared. It simply didn't add up.

I said so to this gentleman, and he told me to look for the signs in nature. "The natural world is Chaos," he said. "Anyone with the Discovery Channel can tell you that. The Fall brought Chaos into God's world of Order."

This too I was skeptical of. Having spent my share of time learning about nature and biology, I knew that the world was not as chaotic as it may seem. What looks to us like disorder is actually an incredibly delicate balance, held together by a law so basic and irrefutable that any economist would recognize it instantly: supply and demand. When there is an abundance of food, whatever group that eats that food will grow until the food source is exhausted or cannot support them any longer. Then, the consumer will dwindle until the supply is rekindled. Again and again on millions of levels of the food chain this balance is played out and preserved.

Other aspects of nature that seem strange and chaotic are not so as well. The bloody chases and deaths that nature shows have been so fond of make it out to be a desperate struggle for survival, with death around every corner. But there is another law that governs Earth's creatures, and that law seems to say that creatures will only take what they need to survive. You won't see cheetahs slaughter a whole herd of antelopes, or the antelopes chase down and kill all the cheetahs. Sometimes after they've hunted the predators eat their prey quietly while the antelope herd stands just a little ways off, occasionally even with the eating cheetahs in their midst. And the animals are not at war with each other. As Rudyard Kipling wrote, they only kill to eat, or to keep from being eaten.

After telling this to my friend, he sat down and pulled out the Bible. Pointing out Genesis 3, he read me the story of the Fall. "So you see," he said, "God said that because of the Fall the natural world was cursed. God said it, that should settle it for us."

Well, it did for me for a long time. And I accepted a great many other teachings that naturally followed from this - that humankind was given the Earth to rule in God's stead, and we were sinful so it obviously wouldn't turn out ok. But still it was ours to control and abuse, because hey, Jesus is coming back soon and we'll be raptured away and not have to deal with the consequences. Right?

Not so much. I was sitting years later and chatting with a theologian friend of mine about the very same topic, and he pointed something out to me: the kind of language God uses to "give" the Earth to humanity is the same kind that a King would use when asking his nobles to look after the kingdom while he was away. Not saying, "Here you go, do what you want," but "Look after this for me, because it's mine and I'm making you my steward." That made a huge difference for me. We still had an obligation to treat the world well! But this didn't sit very well with me if we were looking after a chaotic, self-destructing planet that had no chance of recovery short of the end of the world. Did it still make Biblical sense that this world was a fallen place because of the actions of Adam and Eve?

I re-read Genesis 3. And stopped cold at verse 17: "... and cursed is the earth because of you." Something clicked when I read that again. That sounded different, somehow, than how it had been read to me before. It almost sounded like it was not a curse from God to the Earth, but a prophecy/warning to Adam. "cursed is the earth because of you." Now this is something I'm not entirely sure on, but is it possible that God was saying that because of Adam - because of us - the world was in for some serious hurt? That it would be us who brought a "curse"
upon it, through our actions and attempts to subjugate what we perceived as chaotic?

I know many people have quoted Romans 8: 19-22 in defense of a "Fallen Creation" theology: "For the creation waits with eager longing for the revealing of the sons of God; for the creation was subjected to futility, not of its own will but by the will of him who subjected it in hope; because the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to decay and obtain the glorious liberty of the children of God. We know that the whole creation has been groaning in travail together until now." Is it possible that we are the ones who subject creation to "futility," not because of a curse from long ago but because of our sinfulness, manifested in pollution, waste, and overpopulation? If this is possible, what is our responsibility in terms of response? How does this affect our mission to the world? What are we as evangelicals/emergents/whatever called to do?

I intend to write a follow-up post next week based largely on the conversations that happen after this post, assuming any do happen. If you have any insights or comments, please share them.

40 Comments:

Blogger Unknown said...

Some initial thoughts, Dan. I don't believe in macro-evolution, but I do believe in micro-evolution. I'm wondering if the "curse" of creation did not occur overnight, but was a gradual progression into what we see today. A gradual progression that would happen naturally without God's sustaining hand - or perhaps he just "let off" creation a little until it became as it is (guiding it as always).

Your post comes on the heels of a sermon of by Rob Bell that I just listened to where he mentioned that Rabbinic literature often translates "curses" as "observations." God, therefore, observes that this is how the world will be because of Man's decision to turn away from him. Interesting.

Just some half-baked thougths.

Wed Oct 05, 08:06:00 a.m. 2005  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Grey Owl,

Wow, our stories are remarkably similar, even down to the conversations about creation had during youth. I had the privilege to grow up in a house on the banks of the broad Rainy River in a wooded region of (semi-) Canadian Sheild.

I also had an event where I was trying to capture a wasp to release it from our classroom. The (then) President of YWAM smooshed it before my eyes. He looked at me and said:

"What are ya? Some kind of Buddhist?"

At any rate, I would tend to lean in your direction in regards to the nature of the curse being related to the practice of the power of stewardship.

Many "environmentalists" articulate humanities relationship to the environment as being a parasitic, outsider- thus humanity becomes the apologetic oaf who must tippy-toe around creation. Many Christians, believe we are just "aliens" passing through this foreign world, meant for another- thus creation is dismissively cast aside as secondary and disposable.

Indigenous peoples embrace a view far more in keeping with Judeo traditions. They know that humanity is part of Creation, inseperable from its demise and redemption. In fact, many see the planet as a single, complex organism that is a dynamic expression of the whole- Gaia.

In the Judeo-Christian view (as I see it), our role of stewardship was one that said, "You are part of Creation, but I place in your hands the capacity for its health or demise." So in that sense, I agree with your perspective.

On the other hand, there seems to be that there is something deeper, something mystical (as well as micro-evolutionary, as Scott says) that happened to the entirety of the created order when sin entered the world. We are intended for physicality, but as the resurrected Christ revealed, redeemed physicality will be different, embraced through death and final destruction. I think this goes for all of the Cosmos/Creation too.

You ask a good question, then. What does this mean, then, to our missional presence and purpose?

I think, in part, many of the answers will reveal themselves as we restore the wholistic understanind and functional relationship with Creation. Just as patriarchy has robbed the Church of millenium of insight into the aspects of God best reflected in the the feminine, so too we have lost a great deal of understanding of in our broken relationship with Creation. Reconciliation with Creation is part of the Kingdom task.

Peace,
Jamie

P.s. As a side note, isn't it interesting that concepts about nature such as "supply & demand" and "survival of the fittest" seem to parallel the socio-economic systems of the nations the promote them- namely capitalism, etc? I find it fascinating that in many socialist & communist nations/cultures, scientific theories of evolution have developed along the lines of cooperative systems.

Wed Oct 05, 02:39:00 p.m. 2005  
Blogger Grey Owl said...

Scott - Thanks for commenting. That's an interesting thought, that the "curse" may actually be an "observation." Either way, we've certainly made it come true, haven't we? I've often mused about what you're saying there - God "leaving off" creation - but every time I try to articulate it I get accused of Deism. You sound liek you've thought about this somewhat, care to expand on theat?

Jamie - I'm glad we've got some shared history! That's such a beautiful area of the world, isn't it? I think alot more Christians would lean in our direction if they were able to see and experience that part of nature.

I agree; we are neither parasites nor "just passing through" our world. I would statte, however, that our kind of civilization does have its parasitic characteristics. As you say, indigenous peoples often have a much healthier view of the world and their place in it; which enables them to live as they have for thousands and thousands of years in the same area, while after only a few hundred years some areas of europe and north america are choked with our filth.

I don't think I see the same mystical effect the fall had on creation, though. However, I do agree that there is a redeeming in the future for our planet. I just think it'll be redeeming it from the damage we've done, not redeeming it from spiritual oppression - unless that's something we've since subjected it to. Make any sense?

So how are we to "reconcile with creation," as you put it? Environmentalists are generally looked down upon by christians. Will the Emerging church be a bridge between the two groups, or are we too far gone?

BTW, great insight re: social systems and their respective explanations of the natural world. Anyone else noticed that?

Wed Oct 05, 03:53:00 p.m. 2005  
Blogger Rob said...

Grey Owl et. al,

Yes, the trees hug back.

Cockroaches, on the other hand, do not. And if they did please go wash yourself thoroughly before you even attempt to hug me.

If your first experience of a cockroach had been in the Philippines, no-one would have stomped it -- they would have fled in terror at the size of those suckers.

This has been a great discussion. My apologies for providing a limp attempt at comic relief. I'm with both of you guys: we are stewards of a Creation of which we are a part. That's a very unique role in all of Creation that God has given us.

So, hug a tree. Save a cockroach. Give wasps lots of space.

Smoosh all mosquitos. They have no souls. They are a direct consequence of the Fall, as is disco, brussell sprouts, Toronto, and country & western "music".

Wed Oct 05, 05:26:00 p.m. 2005  
Blogger Unknown said...

I have trouble with the idea that God created the world in the "economy" and "balance" in which it exists. I mean, Hoorah! for the lion, but it kinda sucks being the antelope. Also, it seems antithetical to the story of creation as well as the promise of a redeemed creation (wolf lying down with lamb, lion eating straw, child playing near viper's hole, etc.). There also exists within each of us a desire for that kind of unity/relationship with creation, which suggests a confirmation of what the scriptures say has been and what will again be.

I have, like you, however, wondered about all the re-creation God would have had to do at the moment that the cosmos fell with Man. Not that he couldn't have, mind you. But it makes sense to me that God may have just "let off" of creation, or sin "put him off," letting entropy and micro-evolution run its course to a degree. It may have been 300 years before the first animal ate another - I don't know. I'm not suggesting that God permanently "let off" creation; I wouldn't want to be accused of being a Deist or something. : ) Besides, the scriptures are also clear that God sustains all things.

I would agree with Jamie that something beyond-knowing took place at "the fall." And I would suggest it not only because of the scriptures but also because of the brokenness we see within creation. We sense the wrongness in a tsunami or an earthquake or in a group of chimps killing another chimp for no particular reason - it's as if the cosmos itself is oppressed under sin. Again, I think our surprise at this wrongness or brokenness suggests that things were meant to be different. Not that humanity's sin and recklessness with nature does not contribute to creation's brokenness, it certainly does. And it is in that very place that we can redeem creation, not as opposed to helping the poor, but perhaps in conjunction with it.

And I would agree with Robbymac that all mosquitoes should be summarily executed, being a direct result of the curse.

Wed Oct 05, 06:37:00 p.m. 2005  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Grey Owl,

I absolutely agree with you that civilization as we've developed is parasitic- or cancerous more accurately. I was referring to humanity, so thanks for adding the clarity I should have included.

I am interested in your resistance to the idea of the mystical/spiritual impact of sin on creation. Does not the sin of Adam & Eve touch us, not just by proximity, but by interconnectedness? I think there are a great number of sin-initiated realities in our world today that cannot be categorized as Newtonian results of human failures. I believe that creations redemption will come only after its destruction, which suggests that it was intrinsically altered beyond external influences of man.

I am not sure many environmentalists are very good models for Christians to emulate (though we have a great deal to learn from them). What we require to be reconciled to nature (amoung many things) is to recapture a sacramental worldview, seeing the sacred in all of create, both animate and inanimate.

Here, again, is where indigenous theology is so important. Even the most "mundane" activity, object or location is recognized for the divine that it is. It is respected deeply, but to venerated through segregation, segmentation or compartmentalization. And be clear, it is not the act of respect that makes these things sacred. They are sacred regardless, so failing to treat them respectfully is sin. Think about this the next time you clean a room, prepare a meal, etc.

Another aspect that bridges the gap with creation is directly related to curse- working the land. The work of agriculture, done as a spiritual discipline, is a deeply sacred exercise that reflects the broken relationship with the land in a negotiative process of restoration. Dorothy Day- one of my heroes- who worked largely with the urban poor, opened hostile farms for the very reason.

I could go on and on with examples of being reconciled with Creation, but I'd like to hear some other ideas.

Peace,
Jamie

Wed Oct 05, 10:26:00 p.m. 2005  
Blogger Wanderer said...

I am sure Grey Owl knew that there was no way I would read this post without commenting.

First, with the little knowledge I have of you, I would say with certainty that you are safe from being an actual Druid. I know some. That takes hard work and doesn't happen accidentally.

I think you are probably fairly safe from being a Pagan as well. As you pointed out, being Christian doesn't make you at war with the planet. (I often wonder how much that thought process was birthed by the desire to stay at war with us.)

Do the trees hug back? Not always. It depends on whether you mean it. As for the evolutionary theories I have to point out a few conflicting thoughts.

If all animals ate the grasses, even presuming God provided a never ending supply of it, there is a major problem. Over population. Some animals eat others because that is a natural "checks and balances" scenario. Sensible enough for even us to understand.

The plants and animals exist in a complex balance. A balance so complex that it occasionally gets thrown off. That's when you need a steward to step in and set it right. This is what God meant when we were given this stewardship. If the antelopes are too numerous, hunt a few and eat them. If the lions are too numerous, you can hunt them too. Keep the balance. On the rare occasion that you have succeeded, raid your garden.

The biggest failure is that so many feel we have a right to dispose of nature as we will, or feel that we should avoid impact as much as possible. Both sides are nuts. We are given the guardianship. With that we are given both control and responsibility. As we fail the latter we find ourselves slapped by having the former yanked from us.

Hug the trees, let the cockroaches pass, even smoosh the mosquitoes if you have to. Do all of this, but remember, the King will one day return and check on his lands. You think he'll take "oops" for an answer?

P.S. - Grey Owl - The area you mentioned sounds beautiful. I know a similar area I like to visit near here. Perhaps someday we will give each other tours while discussing our philosophies under the trees.

Wed Oct 05, 11:09:00 p.m. 2005  
Blogger Grey Owl said...

Robby - this coming from a former member of the Dust Rhinoes, a folk-rock band? Whatever you say, dude...

Scott - you said, "We sense the wrongness in a tsunami or an earthquake or in a group of chimps killing another chimp for no particular reason - it's as if the cosmos itself is oppressed under sin" - I actually don't see that. Tsunamis and hurricanes are natural occurances. Sure it's terrible to be caught in them - I'm not trying to downplay that - but they happen because of the complex balance in our weather systems. Cold air system + warm air system = big storm, according to the rules of the natural world we live in. Earthquakes are the natural consequence of the young planet we live on. Mostly, we see these things as wrong or evil because they hurt or harm us in some way. Why does that make them evil? Why do we have the right to label them as such?

I don't see them as evil, but as natural. I think more people are dying because of them for 2 reasons; the pollution we've done to the earth causing global warming, loss of glaciers, etc.; and there are just more of us around to get caught in those events. I also couldn't find anything more beautiful than the balance upheld by predator and prey, by the various creatures at every level of the food chain. Is the lion evil because it kills the antelope? It dies and feeds the antelope's food, the grass. Very circle-of-life-ish. And (although I don't want to get into it too much yet) I think that the great diversity at every level of the food chain is one of the requirements for our planet's survival.

Jamie - I resist the idea of the mystical impact of sin on creation because it seems to imply that earthquakes, carnivores and forest fires are somehow evil or wrong, and we ought to think of them as such if not stopping them outright. It implies the planet will not be in safe hands unless it were fully "under control", of us or otherwise. This denies what my eyes tell me, that the world is in balance and would be perfectly alright without us - or with us, should we choose to live by the rules like everything else. Left on its own, with pollution erased, this world could go on almost indefinately. I have not found, in scripture or in nature, evidence that our world is fallen or in any way wrong.

The sin of Adam/Eve is passed to us because of heredity. How then is it passed to creation if not through our treatment of it? I sincerly doubt we are that important. As far as creation redeemed through destruction, I would hate to see it come to that. Did not God say, "Behold! I am making all things new?" Does this imply also that the world will be destryed and a new one made? Or will this world be redeemed from our actions and healed from the hurts done to it? Just a thought.

re: agriculture - that's another issue entirely. I'll deal with it next week. And I'll agree with you that perhaps few environmentalists are good models for Christians, though the reverse is probably true as well.

Wanderer - what took you so long? ;)

I wasn't worried about being considered a druid. I don't think I'd mind it all that much, actually. I have a great deal of respect and love for the earth, even if I don't worship it. And I feel kinship with the animals I encounter in the forest. Having an almost exclusivly Celtic background I know it's possible (and likely if my family's history is accurate) that there are druids in my background. So please don't think I was offended by the suggestion!

you said, "The biggest failure is that so many feel we have a right to dispose of nature as we will, or feel that we should avoid impact as much as possible. Both sides are nuts. We are given the guardianship." - I'll agree with that, although I'm not sure it would fall apart without us. I think the stewardship was more along the lines of, "You've got all the intelligence/skills necessary to either live in harmony with or completely destroy this planet. Don't screw it up."

In essence, I think it may be ours to live in the world as one of the creatures, but a creature that is made in the image of God and has the potential to be co-creator with him. "Fill the earth and subdue it" doesn't mean what we think it means. Anyone got a hebrew-english dictionary?

BTW, wanderer, I think the tour idea sounds great. Whereabouts on the continent are you?

Thu Oct 06, 12:41:00 a.m. 2005  
Blogger Rob said...

Grey Owl,

Help me understand...

What about my having formerly been the bass player in a butt-kickin' celtic rock band (the Dust Rhinos) suggests that my holy crusade against mosquitos doesn't make perfectly logical sense? :)

Thu Oct 06, 01:42:00 a.m. 2005  
Blogger Unknown said...

It's okay to admit when you're wrong, man. There 's no shame in it. : )

Peace, brother.

Thu Oct 06, 07:54:00 a.m. 2005  
Blogger Grey Owl said...

No, the mosquitoes part still makes sense, it's the anti-country "music" part that I don't get...

Thu Oct 06, 09:30:00 a.m. 2005  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Grey Owl,

I don't think it is about labelling natural disasters as evil, but rather as a reflection of a broken system. It is like babies born with serious dysfunctions or disoders. There is nothing evil or morally wrong about them, but damaged by that same mystical impact. I cannot see many birth defects- especially the ones that are random "coincidences"- being part of a balanced creation.

I also find that your view too fully seperates man from creation, which is not only impossible, in my mind, but seems to contradict Scripture- even in the Roman's reference you made, the word for "creature" as in humanity and "creation" are the same, suggesting that God sees the connection as indivisible.

As for the "circle-of-life-ish" ideas, I am still unconvinced that in God's order he would allow for true suffering being part of the natural order of things. I also don't think that using the "over population" argument is good enough either, as it seems to reject the possibilities of other realities in the created order prior to sin.

You say the world is perfectly alright without us, which (again) is my greatest disagreement with you here. God never intended creation to be without humanity, and never humanity with creation. God created it such a way that our shared stewardship was a necessity. Otherwise, it was no different than letting a child "help" mow the lawn with a toy mower. You seem to suggest to Wanderer that we don't really have any responsibility but to live in harmony with creation, but stewardship seems to be more than this- ie. naming the animals.

You doubt humanity is "that important" yet Scripture tells us that we above the angels in God's created order. Additionally, John 3:16 says that God loved the world (kosmos) aka the entire created reality, that He sent His Son. Our salvation and the salvation of Creation are caught up together, inseperable.

As for redemption of creation coming through destruction, I was refering to the Cross, not (necessarily) the destrution of the physical world, though I suspect it is possible, if not probable.

You say: "Did not God say, "Behold! I am making all things new?" Does this imply also that the world will be destryed and a new one made? Or will this world be redeemed from our actions and healed from the hurts done to it?"

If the latter is true, then our created bodies will also be healed and renewed, not replaced. And yet Scriptures seem to suggest that we will be given new bodies. I don't think that our old bodies (nor fallen creation) will be abandon for new ones, but rather their nature will be restored intrinsically. However, I think that may happen on the other side of destruction. Does that make sense?

As for Christians being good models for environmentalists- you are absolutely right, which is the greater failure than the opposite. Well pointed out.

On a side note, the Hebrew words for "subdue" (kabash) and "dominion" (radah) from Gen. 1:28 are troubling to many, as they historically have frequent reference to subjegation. In there negative usage, they are synonymous with "to tread down". "Subdue" is used only once more (that I could find) in Micah 7:19, which is positive, but still powerful. "Dominion" seems to be used exclusively to speak of power & authority over something or someone.

What is your take on this?

Peace,
Jamie

Thu Oct 06, 11:19:00 a.m. 2005  
Blogger Grey Owl said...

Jamie,

Maybe saying the world would be "fine without us" isn't exactly the point. I am still convinced that if humans were to dissapear tomorrow the planet would go on the was it has for many millions of years. But the point is that now we're here, so what do we do? As you pointed out, we don't need to ignore nature or detroy it. I think we need to live in it.

You pointed out that I implied, "we don't really have any responsibility but to live in harmony with creation" - not what I'm trying to say. I'm trying to say that we have a place in creation, a place for our own that we are to live in according to the same rules that govern the rest of the planet. We aren't seperate from creation but dependant on it, and I think we christians tend to forget that.

I'm reminded of a scene in "Instinct" with Anthony Hpkins and Cuba Gooding jr., where Hopkin's character explains how he came to be living with a group of mountain gorillas. Cuba's character says, "So they accepted you as one of them?" to which Hopkins angrily replied, "Don't you listen? They didn't accept me as one of them. They accepted me - accepted a man - into their world." I think that, in my mind, we have a much closer connection to creation than we may think.

re: The brokenness of creation - I'm not so sure about that. Why is it broken? the fact is that, in order for the system to have the order that it does some thing are necessary. If we didn't had hurricanes every now and then our weather systems wouldn't function so well the rest of the time. If we didn't have earthquakes then the planet would literaly fall apart. These things function according to a very strict set of rules, and I think it would be strange if this is creation's "fallen" state - it's actually not as bad or chaotic as we once thought. Besides, we certainly don't seem to mind some parts of creation - the parts that don't inconvience us, that is. Everything else is broken or wrong somehow. Who are we to judge what is good in the world?

Re: the restoration of the world - I think that's another issue entirely, and my post next week will likely deal with it as well.

My take on the "subdue" and "dominion" language in Genesis? It bothers the hell out of me. I think that attitudes like that are what's wrong with our treatment of the world in the first place. Honestly, I think that is has to mean something other than what the implication is, because if it doesn't then I am in a religion that casts us in a role that will lead to the destruction of the world I love. There's something more there, but I'm not sure what it is.

I'm also not convinced the story of Adam and Eve is meant to be read literally.But that's another issues entirely. ;)

Thu Oct 06, 02:43:00 p.m. 2005  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Grey Owl,

First, I hope you know how much I am enjoying this exchange. I've enjoyed the freedom to disagree in a productive sort of way. I hope you get the same vibe, as I'd hate to come off argumentative. Despite your blatant and frequent heresy, I still like you! It's not as though I am going to start www.greyowl-no.blog.com. (Kidding, of course. We agree on more than we disagree on)

I am not so sure that I believe the planet would be fine without us, from a purely ecosystem perspective. I believe that we ARE Creation, thus interdependant with the rest of creation. But that is, as you say, beside the point.

I absolutely agree about our very close connection to Creation. Evolutionary issues aside, the fact that we share so much DNA with primates demonstrates that God is telling us something.

So birth defects that aren't related to the physical choices we make are something that are a part of God orignal plan for Creation? Seems to be that something is "broken".

Let me make a guess here: I would suspect that, perhaps, you are reacting against a Christian view of the fallenness of Creation that paints it as a dangerous and dysfunctional place that we need to escape from and/or overhaul. It is a view that seems oblivious to the magnificance of the complexity of biology, climate, geology, etc. If this is the case, I couldn't agree more.

However, is there room for the possibility that, like shifted lenses in a telescope, something is slightly "out of focus", that there is are spiritual pollutants & toxins that are impacting all created things?

As for the subdue and dominion language, I think it simply means that God has empowered us to have an authority above Creation, which is obviously true (think agriculture, husbandry, science, etc.). However, we have used that power to dominate and destroy where we are called to use it to nurture and co-create.

Isn't it implicit in this power and responsibility- in this stewardship- that our purpose is, to a degree, a role that creation is dependant upon us for? Just as we are dependant on creation?

As for the story of Adam and Eve not necessarily being literal, you are preaching to the choir.

Peace,
Jamie

Thu Oct 06, 03:25:00 p.m. 2005  
Blogger Wanderer said...

Jamie - I don't think that birth defects are quite the same example of something broken that you seem to indicate. Birth is the process of the creation becoming a creator. It is us mimicking our own creator. Just as with so many other areas, as hard as we strive to be as perfect as God, sometimes it won't work out. Unfortunate, but it is part of the rules of the game.

Grey Owl - Sorry for taking so long. :) You do know how busy I am with my daughter. Over all, I think we are in fairly practical agreement on our role with the environment, so there is not much I can add just yet.

As for my locale, I am in upstate NY. There were two specific areas your comments remind me of. My friend has about forty acres in the Naples Valley. Very beautiful and mostly undisturbed land. It is also near a beautiful set of waterfalls he and I have been known to climb from time to time. My wife and I also make it a point about once a year to drive south to the Alleghanies and watch the deer and the bears and just enjoy the solitude. Of course, bringing up the bears reminds me that I haven't visited the Adirondacks too recently. Perhaps we will head up there again.

My mind now travels from campsite to campsite and forest to forest through a series of wonderful memories. Now look what you've done. ;)

Thu Oct 06, 04:37:00 p.m. 2005  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Wanderer,

So in God's intentional created order, our inability to be perfect dooms us to tragic defects that leave many to suffer for a life time? I don't buy it. I will say that it is a poor comparison for the issue I was arguing. However, I stand by the larger argument.

Peace,
Jamie

Thu Oct 06, 06:59:00 p.m. 2005  
Blogger Linda said...

A few important comments-

I can't believe you have cockroaches in Canada! I thought they were only in the south.

I have to agree with Robby about country western music, although I must live under the curse, because it was all my mom listened to, and now it is what my kids listen to.

Apparently the "cool" gene skips a generation.

And, while I might not enjoy it today, I would however defend disco, just on the basis of fond memories.

Thu Oct 06, 11:12:00 p.m. 2005  
Blogger Grey Owl said...

Jamie - I shall take down my Emergent-Voyeurs-no site post-haste. I'm enjoying this discourse as well, despite or because of our differences.

You say, "I would suspect that, perhaps, you are reacting against a Christian view of the fallenness of Creation that paints it as a dangerous and dysfunctional place that we need to escape from and/or overhaul. It is a view that seems oblivious to the magnificance of the complexity of biology, climate, geology, etc. If this is the case, I couldn't agree more." Yeah, that's more or less it. I think we're in the same boat, on this, though I think that after my follow-up next week our positions will be more clear... same thing as when I will speak on agriculture.

I think our biggest departure is that I don't believe (as you do) that creation needs us for its very survival. What, exactly, do we contribute that nature couldn't take care of itself? Sure, science and art and farming and all those things, but those are for our benefit not nature's. I still don't get where that fits in.


Wanderer - No prob, I'm sure kids take time. Not like you can leave them to fend for themselves in the backyard...

I'm not sure about the birth defect thing that you and Jamie are talking about. I'll have to think about it.

Grace - We do have cockroaches, but no one talks about them because the mosquitoes are too traumatizing. Oh, and good luck with that disco fever of yours. I hear there's pills for that sort of thing... ;)

Fri Oct 07, 01:34:00 a.m. 2005  
Blogger Wanderer said...

Jamie -
You say, "So in God's intentional created order, our inability to be perfect dooms us to tragic defects that leave many to suffer for a life time? I don't buy it. I will say that it is a poor comparison for the issue I was arguing. However, I stand by the larger argument."

It's your side that claims original sin, not mine. I offered a conclusion that you might care for a little more than the bottom line: Sometimes things go wrong. Without things going wrong, there is no challenge. Without challenge, there is no real success. Without the ability to overcome challenges and demonstrate our success, there is nothing for us to be proud of. With nothing for us to be proud of there is nothing for God to be proud of. We thrive on conflict. If you don't believe this, look at your own religious text. The whole of your religious practice is based on conflict between good and evil. If there was nothing you could label evil, there would be no conflict. No conflict, no harm. No harm, no need. No need, why God?

Does my longer version some it up better or are you still finding a way to blame your ancestors for besting your God?

Fri Oct 07, 05:55:00 p.m. 2005  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Grey Owl,

I suspect we are closer than we think. Let me try to put another spin on it.

This is an imperfect analogy, but let me share it anyway: Two loving parents design and build the perfect bedroom for their little daughter. Painted, decorated, stocked, etc. in such a way that will make the little girl feel like the princess her parents see her as. Each touch is a personal reflection of the love and identity of the parent.

When the child dies, the room remains unchanged, still a beautiful, functional, genuine creation of love from the parents. But now, empty and cold, it has lost its meaning, replaced by a sadness, an incompleteness.

This is how I see, in part, Creation without humanity. Am I saying that Creation has no value outside of humanity? No, but I do believe that God wanted us to live in Creation to our (and its) fullness- thus what I think He might mean in "subdue" and "dominion". Just a thought.

Peace,
Jamie

I think our biggest departure is that I don't believe (as you do) that creation needs us for its very survival. What, exactly, do we contribute that nature couldn't take care of itself? Sure, science and art and farming and all those things, but those are for our benefit not nature's. I still don't get where that fits in.

Sat Oct 08, 09:31:00 p.m. 2005  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Wanderer,

Actually, I wouldn't be comfortable embracing the theology of orginal sin, at least not in its fullness. That, however, is another blog for another time.

However, on your comment: "Sometimes things go wrong. Without things going wrong, there is no challenge. Without challenge, there is no real success. [etc]" I do not believe that challenge only comes through adversity in its destructive form. If I were to embrace this idea, then there is not real good or bad. While I seriously considered these ideas in the past (ie Taoism, etc.) they lack conviction for me.

I also think you thoroughly miss the point in reading "our" texts, if you think that without the negative, we could never have the positive. Rather, I see that in the face of the tragic negative, God has the capacity to make it good- even great. However, I do believe that the failure was/is offensive to God, both against His nature and His best will for humanity.

"Does my longer version some it up better or are you still finding a way to blame your ancestors for besting your God?"

I am not blaming anyone for anything, least of all "besting God". How you can come to that conclusion is beyond me. I will say that, like most indigenous worldviews, believing in an intrinsic universality/connectedness of all things, allows for timeless consequences that we all share. Our salvation is caught up with each others, so "blame" doesn't work in that context.

Peace,
Jamie

Sat Oct 08, 09:40:00 p.m. 2005  
Blogger Rob said...

Grace (and Grey Owl, indirectly),

The reason I'm so familiar with music from the 60's (Clapton/Cream, CCR, Beatles, Hendrix, etc.) was because of disco. Disco drove me up the wall, so I went "retro" to find something to listen to.

I've made peace with the BeeGees since then, but Leo Sayer's "You Make Me Feel Like Dancing" cause seizures even in cockroaches.

As far as country and western "music" goes, I feel your pain, Grace, and I'll pray for your soul, Grey Owl.

On the serious side, it's been fantastic to follow Jamie, Grey Owl, and Wanderer's conversation here. Very stimulating, everyone!

Sun Oct 09, 03:00:00 p.m. 2005  
Blogger Linda said...

A bit of trivia...

In 1983 Leo Sayer wrote a special song as a tribute to Hamish McAlpine, a Scottish goalie.

(I'm not a Leo Sayer fan either, btw.)

Mon Oct 10, 12:29:00 p.m. 2005  
Blogger Linda said...

Grey Owl,
Sorry to change the subject.

As the mother of 2 boys, it's a fine line between "Ewww, kill that (bug, snake, mouse, whatever) for me!" and "Boys, don't torture that grasshopper or spider."

(still looking for my Andy Gibb album),
grace

Mon Oct 10, 01:07:00 p.m. 2005  
Blogger Wanderer said...

Jamie -

"I am not blaming anyone for anything, least of all 'besting God'. How you can come to that conclusion is beyond me."

Simple reading. God had a creation and a plan. Humans screwed it up, and thus we all pay the price. The cause and effect mentality lays blame on the table. God's plan was damaged by the actions of humans. In short he didn't accomplish his goal because of a good human defense. You may not like or agree with my take on your comments, but I am sorely disappointed if you can truthfully say you don't follow that thought process.

I don't see how there is no good or bad because they bounce off of each other. In truth it makes them both quite real. As for denying that one needs the other, just look at basic physics and build from there. Light can only be as a result of the darkness it dispels. In reverse, darkness can only be due to the absence of light. If it were to become permanently dark, it wouldn't be because the darkness could exist without light, for it only is what it is because of the light that is absent.

If there is no opposite to something, there is no definition. A lake is defined by its shores. The shore only fits that description because of the lake. You can't have a good day without ever having a bad. It wouldn't be a good day. It would just be a day. (So defined by its counterpart, the night, and vice versa.)

Life is about these challenges and these tug-of-war battles between opposites. To deny this is to deny creation and thus to deny God.

As such, do not question God for these deformities or blame age old societal ills. Realize it is also part of the plan. You don't know that they suffer as much as you assume. Even if the child does, look at your long life and compare your lifetime of suffering to the childs. How many stories do we hear of these "poor children" bringing people back to God? This doesn't sound like part of the plan?

I never understood why folks had to assume that the darker side of nature was inherently evil, or that in conjunction with this, there wasn't a darker side of God's plan. Not evil, just not quite what our fragile human minds think is necessary.

Mon Oct 10, 04:52:00 p.m. 2005  
Blogger Cindy said...

Since I've been gone, this comment may be way too late to be of relevance. Of course, it might not have been relevant anyway, but here goes.

As they pointed out on the news tonight, the Himalayas were formed millions (50?)of years ago by the shifting of the tectonic plates at the fault line under India and Pakistan. Back then, there was no tragedy because, ummm.. there was no one (best we can tell). But today, when such an earthquake, or tsunami, or hurricane comes along, we call it evil because of the terrible toll in human lives. They are tragedies, without a doubt. But, I don't buy that all acts of nature are of themselves reactions to or part of the decaying of the earth caused by the fall of man. Some natural occurences are like bodily functions. Growing pains. Whatever you want to call it. They've been occurring since long before man first arrived here, and to me that says they are a natural part of God's design for our planet.

Of course, as others have already said, we do have to take into consideration the decay that is a direct result of our selfishness and poor stewardship of the earth. However, I feel that overall we can be too hasty to identify the natural as evil, when nature sometimes just -- is.

Mon Oct 10, 07:35:00 p.m. 2005  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Wanderer,

Perhaps I have come across as combative, so if so, I apologize. I am enjoying the exchange, but I feel the tone getting tense, perhaps even condescending. I hope that isn't the case.

I respect that our views are difference, but I will say that I do not believe that it is as simple as the 1-2-3 you present it as. I believe that God choose to give humanity free will, knowing that it could be abused- which it was, causing an impact on all creation. I am not blaming Adam or Eve, as (figuratively or literally) their sin is all our sin. No one bested God. So, I don't mean to disappoint you, but I find the thought process flawed. But that is why people disagree, right? So no biggie.

I understand your explanation of good and bad, using the analogy of light & darkness, but I think this does not argue for the duality that you present it as. For me, this line of thinking leads to a concept of good & bad where there is no ultimate distinction, where evil is a necessity, not to be judged, but embraced.

I am not sure the scope of this post and thread is the place for an exploration of dualism, Taoism, etc.

"Life is about these challenges and these tug-of-war battles between opposites. To deny this is to deny creation and thus to deny God."

If you believe this, then I have denied God. Since I know this to be untrue, I am not sure where we can go from here.

I will say, however, that I didn't use the word "evil" in reference to the broken aspects of creation. Evil and broken are worlds apart, so I think it is important to clear that up.

Anyway, thanks for taking the time to respond to my ideas.

Peace,
Jamie

Mon Oct 10, 08:25:00 p.m. 2005  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Hey Cindy,

I agree that not all acts of nature are a result of the Fall, but I do believe that some of them are. Additionally, I think that our relationship and/or proximity to acts of nature have been altered, not just nature itself. Does that make any sense?

Also, as I said to Wanderer, I am not sure anyone has actually called it "evil". However, I still hold that humanity's mystical connection to Creation has been altered (not severed) through sin. Admittedly, I am very defined, in this view, by indigeous theology/worldview, as I found them to be among the best in the field of Creation.

Peace,
Jamie

Mon Oct 10, 08:32:00 p.m. 2005  
Blogger Cindy said...

Jamie- I realize I wasn't specific enough. When I said "we" call these things "evil" I was really referring to opinions I read following the tsunami in Indonesia. I don't recall if anyone here has even used the word evil. Dan's post reminded me of the whole complex issue, and I was pulling it all together without letting anyone else know that.

I can't say that I understand what you mean by, "I think that our relationship and/or proximity to acts of nature have been altered, not just nature itself." I might agree, I just don't get your point yet. We were altered by our sin. Nature was altered by our sin. What is the other relationship that I'm not seeing?

Mon Oct 10, 10:23:00 p.m. 2005  
Blogger Grey Owl said...

Wow. Look what happens when I go away.

Jamie - I think you're making alot of sense, although I don't agree with your conclusions. And I'm glad we can keep chatting, this is alot of fun for me!

Wanderer - ditto, although I'm pretty sure I've missed a little bit of your point because of our differing worldviews. Probably a conversation better had over coffee than through the screen.

Cindy - bingo. That's what I was trying to get at, well put.

I'm intending on finishing a post following up on this later this week. If you feel like continuing this, please do, I'm curious to see where it goes.

Mon Oct 10, 10:37:00 p.m. 2005  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Hey Cindy,

Yeah, I figured I should clarify. What I was suggesting (as a possibility) is that these violent expressions of nature would have occurred prior to the Fall, but our proximity to them was protected (ie the Garden). Does that help?

Peace,
Jamie

Tue Oct 11, 10:20:00 a.m. 2005  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Grey Owl,

I believe in a relationally defined reality. I believe that when sin entered the world, Relationship was altered: Humanity to God; Humanity to Humanity; Humanity to Self; and Humanity to Creation.

When relationships are fundamentally altered, which is what happened negatively through sin, the expression (if not the nature) of each party is altered. Should it not have been for sin, would we have encountered the wrath of God? I am not so sure we would have, but that being said, God's nature was not altered intrinsically.

In the same way, in our relationship to Creation, we were put at odds with a Creation we were meant to live in symbiosis with (I would argue that God empowered us significantly to govern that symbiosis). Within this understanding, one could still see that impact in the terms that you present them. This is where we differ.

I believe that, should the restoration of these relationships occur, a fundamentally different dynamic would emerge, one that surpasses merely a reversal of our impact on Creation.

However, please understand what I am NOT saying as well. I am NOT saying that in a restored (or rather, reconciled) Creation we all dance around with lions and tigers and bears (oh my...), nor am I saying that the violent (and beautiful) realities of our planet will disappear completely. I am NOT saying that I don't believe in Gods redemptive use of struggle and suffering for His purposes, but that it is just that, a redemptive grace, not an original intention.

In the end, my argument comes from a deep sense of loss at the seperateness of humanity from Creation as you present it. I have a deeply held belief that our relationship to Creation is so bound together that it is inseperable in the process of reconciliation with God. It is the same connectedness that makes me embrace an understanding of our shared responsibility for "Sin" throughout all time.

An Australian Aboriginal woman named Lilla Watson was said something that I think applies broadly in this discussion:

"If you have come here to help me, you are wasting your time. But if you
have come because your liberation is bound up with mine, then let us work
together."

Peace,
Jamie

Tue Oct 11, 10:42:00 a.m. 2005  
Blogger Unknown said...

What do you expect to find in a totally restored creation? If there are new heavens and a new earth in which we live, as we are told, what will that life look like? Will death be a part of that cosmos - death of plant and animal life, if not human life?

Tue Oct 11, 10:59:00 a.m. 2005  
Blogger Grey Owl said...

Jamie - continuing with the "relationally defined reality", an analogy cam into my mind earlier today: Creation is like a Mother, and we are like its child. But we are a rebellious child that causes great pain to our Mother, and she grieves for the seperation between us. As you put it, "I have a deeply held belief that our relationship to Creation is so bound together that it is inseperable in the process of reconciliation with God." I still think thatour role in nature is not exactly what I think you're saying, but we both agree that reconciliation can happen for us and Nature. Next post I'll share what I think that may look like.

I'll just touch on the good vs evil debate; I've heard the "evil exists because God exists" argument, and I have only this to add: God is more merciful, loving, righteous and just than we will ever be able to comprehend. If we can trust anyone to do right in this world, it's him. The existance of evil is something I can see with my eyes, how it fits into God's plan is not very clear to me. But that's for future posts...

Tue Oct 11, 12:14:00 p.m. 2005  
Blogger Arthur Brokop II said...

Interesting discussion, good to "hear" the voices of old friends since I haven't had time to sit and blog for a while...
Wanderer, how I miss the beauty of Upstate New York, Grey Owl's place reminded me a lot of "home".
Friday night Pastor Art and I drove out onto the rez, miles from the lights of Shiprock, and just enjoyed the night sky. And to answer the question presented in the post, personally I have never hugged a tree that didn't hug back.

Wed Oct 12, 11:46:00 p.m. 2005  
Blogger Wanderer said...

Jamie - You are correct in noting the tension, but the fault is mostly mine. It annoys me to no end when people who acknowledge that we can't understand God's work still feel qualified to point the finger at God when things go wrong. Furthermore, it angers me when rather than stating disagreement, someone says they can't see where I came up with my statements. You may see flaws in my logic, but if the logic is presented, then you can see where it came from, even if that source is flawed.

Finally, I must say that I am enjoying this conversation as well, but the previous two posts were greatly influenced by tensions outside of this forum.

That being said, I do have to respond to another part of your post.

"I understand your explanation of good and bad, using the analogy of light & darkness, but I think this does not argue for the duality that you present it as. For me, this line of thinking leads to a concept of good & bad where there is no ultimate distinction, where evil is a necessity, not to be judged, but embraced."

I stand by almost exactly what you are saying. There is no clear cut distinction. Actions alone rarely stand for right and wrong. The greater scheme of the story will determine that. There are virtually no actions that are intrinsically wrong regardless of the rest of the story. Most are simply more wrong, more often.

You are right though, interesting conversation this is, but there are only so many aspects of this we can go around on before simply acknowledging we see things differently.

Thu Oct 13, 02:38:00 p.m. 2005  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Wanderer - I honestly never meant to question your logic, but rather admit that I failed to follow it- thus the failing being my own. I apologize for it coming across in any other way.

As to understanding God's work and still feeling qualified to point the finger at Him, I hope you still don't think that is what I am doing. If so, I can only hope it is due to my failure to communicate otherwise, as it is by far NOT my intention.

On the issue of duality, I think agreeing to disagree on this point is the best course of action, at least for now. I've appreciated the thorough and detailed responses you have offered. I am also grateful for Grey Owl providing this forum (Next post please!).

Peace,
Jamie

Thu Oct 13, 03:57:00 p.m. 2005  
Blogger Wanderer said...

Jamie - Truce then? :)

Thu Oct 13, 10:00:00 p.m. 2005  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Wanderer,

Truce indeed!

Peace,
Jamie

Fri Oct 14, 12:42:00 a.m. 2005  
Blogger Grey Owl said...

Maryellen - we must be hugging some of the same trees!

Jamie & Wanderer - glad everybody's still friends here. I would have jumped in more but you guys were doing so well... hope we can do this again soon!

Fri Oct 14, 03:30:00 p.m. 2005  

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