Wednesday, November 30, 2005

Emergent Huh?


I'm going to be talking about the new Emergent What? site, but first I'll tell you how I wound up there.

When I first googled "Emerging Church" I came across a few sites. Ok, I came across 9 million sites. But there some at the top that caught my eye, and like any savvy (read: lazy) netsurfer I decided to check out the first ones I saw.

On the "pro" side were Andrew Jones, The Emergent Village, and the people I eventually hooked up with (and can be seen on the links sidebar). On the "con" side were the popular Emergent No and the slightly less credible although more humorous Slice of Laodicea. I checked both sides out. Just to be sure. I'll be honest; from the beginning I was concerned that this whole Emergent phenomenon would turn out to be just another fad, and I could do without that. Remind me to tell you about my experiences in Deliverance Ministry circles.

Nope, I was not at all interested in "the next big thing."So I started with the Village's blog, and began reading the comments there. I was impressed at the willingness to talk and share that I found, and after creating a persona I became involved in the conversations -and eventually lives - of the people there. Some of them (like Jamie and Robbymac) I'm still friends with. But I knew I couldn't spend all my time with one side, and so I made my way across no man's land to find the other trenches. I arrived at E-No and was pretty shocked at some of the anger and hate I saw flying both ways. The writers were sarcastic and bitter sounding, and I tried hard to ignore it so I could listen to the criticisms they were making.

I saw some merit in what they were saying. They were noticing alot of the "fringe" aspects that many had also noticed - the side that wanted to throw out the concept of sin/absolute truth, elevate other spiritual texts to the level of the Bible (or take it down a few pegs) and have "free love" or whatever else. We were recycling hippies, I swear. Anyway, I saw Emerging Christians also notice the negative aspects and speak out against it. But few of them would do so at E-No, which I thought was a shame because the majority of the "Emerging Christians" that stopped by would generally be the extreme cases. Some even sent crude or explicit emails to Carla, one of the site's moderators.

I began commenting there in an attempt to be a balancing force. I guess I thought highly of my arbitration abilities, and that maybe Emergent and her critics could come to some kind of middle ground. I spent a frustrating few months there, having a few decent conversations and a whole pile of negative ones. As soon as I was identified as an "Emerging Sympathizer" I was blasted from every angle. I tried to reason with many of them, and some were willing to start from an assumption of mutual respect. Tooaugust/littlec in particular I maintained an email relationship for several months, and Kerri was another that, even though we disagreed, we didn't hate on each other. But many of them weren't and my frustration soon gave way to deep sadness. I couldn't keep going the way I was. Oh yeah - I received crude emails as well. Several of them.

Eventually I gave up, and wrote a farewell post to explain my absence. I let them know that I wouldn't be returning, and that (ironically) they were part of the reason that I now identified myself as emerging. As expected I was maligned for this, although a couple with whom I'd clashed expressed sadness that I was leaving. To my surprise, Carla (who has always been the more moderate of the 3 contributors) thanked me for participating and wished me well in the future. I was pleased to be able to leave on relatively good terms.

I haven't had much chance to engage with the critics of the EC recently, and that has made me sad. But just the other week I found a post on Robbymac's site about a new Emergent No at www.emergentno.com. This one wasn't owned or run by critics of EC, but instead was operated by Justin Baeder. I found this to be confusing, as I knew Justin to be a supporter of the emerging church. But what Justin had done was set up the site to receive all the posts from both the original E-No and Slice, and allow people to comment without fear of being banned for supporting the EC (apparently several supporters had been kicked off the original sites for disagreeing with the site owner, although I'm sure that there have been many who were banned legitimately because of their language or conduct). The name of the new site (when you reach the page) is Emergent What? I chuckled when I saw that because I remember suggesting that name to Jamie a while back for my new blog.

My reaction was mixed at first - the owners of the original site were crying foul, and while I found it humorous that they would accuse someone else of slander I could see how they would feel about it. The URL's are very similar, and there were some copyright issues that still are up in the air. But having a chance to comment on the criticisms levied, and maybe even engage again with some critics themselves? I missed the Village's blog since it shut down, and this looked like it could be a replacement.

Because let's face it - we still need criticisms. We need people who are watching us and keeping us accountable. We need outsiders to look in on us and challenge us. And we need to test our theology and reasoning; what better way to do so than with people who are passionately committed to the Bible and sound doctrine? If we can withstand the criticisms, then great. If some areas of our reasoning are flawed, they will be uncovered. And I hope that my interactions at Emergent What prove as fruitful as some of the others I've had in the past.

What do you think about the new site? Will you check it out? Care to share your stories about your interactions with/as an EC-critic?

17 Comments:

Anonymous Anonymous said...

I think that it is also ironic that they are upset by someone using their name, when their use of "Emergent" could be equally accused of diverting traffic.

That being said, I think it was probably poorly thought through. We do not need to give people any reason to attack us. A little communication out of courtesy would have gone a long way.

Then again, I am slowly staying away from E-No, as I have come to a point where I have felt their criticisms have crossed lines that make it far more destructive and constructive. We need critics, but I no longer feel they are valid ones.

Peace,
Jamie

Wed Nov 30, 12:03:00 p.m. 2005  
Blogger Grey Owl said...

Jamie - thanks for stopping by, long time no see! I agree, some communication would have probably made the issue less angst-filled.

I'm sad you're staying away from E-No, even though I understand. I think you were a good voice of reason there. Goodness knows they needed all they could get.

Wed Nov 30, 02:55:00 p.m. 2005  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I still stop by, but don't comment. Carla's recent comments about the evils of the Roman Catholic Church and ecumenism being the proof of emergents failing really anger me. Emergent aside, this dismissal of RC, Orthodox and other eastern Christian traditions is arrogant and unhelpful.

Thus, I have not found that their input is constructive, nor my influence effective. There are far too many people who I would rather invest the time and energy in. That's just me.

Peace,
Jamie

Peace,
Jamie

Wed Nov 30, 05:26:00 p.m. 2005  
Blogger kekoa said...

I just want to make a comment and get some feedback.
I don't belong to either camp. I'm not in the EC, and I'm also not a reformation protestant. I find both to be a little extreme for my liking. I find them both to be divisive. You may be wondering how I could find the EC divisive...

Well, it is my experience through blogs and message boards that as soon as I show apprehension and a biblical dissagreement with some very important characteristics of EC churches (some not all) I am catagorized as closed minded, full of spiritual pride, and not willing to change the look of church to keep up with the culture.

All of those are wrong.

So, now I'm looking for a church home. I have no problem with different styles of buildings (if there is one) and styles of music (please no Jesus is my boy-friend music!). I don't care if the pastor sits on a stool, the group is in a circle and I even don't care if there are candles artistic murals on the walls.

The thing is, I want GOD CENTRAL in the Church. Isn't that a new concept?!? [sarcasim]. I'm finding it hard to find, though.

Gotta end this because I need to take care of the kids, but would love to hear your thoughts from a non-EC who feels the same frustration that you do.

Wed Nov 30, 06:22:00 p.m. 2005  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Kerri,

Sadly, with the availability of the web, many people can jump on board as voices in the dialogue, giving no indication as to their maturity, etc.

That being said, I have not found the conversation nearly as divisive in Canada (I am not trying to be pro-Canada, as we have our own problems). I am writing a post on this right now. Just an observation.

I find it interesting that you list three aspects of the EC, all of which are stylistic externals. I have seen this to be true of many who are jump on the trend train, but for myself (and many people I interact with) it is very different. My church, for example, is by no means an EC.

I hope you have not ever experienced the kind of treatment you mentioned at my blog (if you;ve ever visited). Know that it is also a safe place to disagree. Thanks for sharing!

Peace,
Jamie

Wed Nov 30, 09:13:00 p.m. 2005  
Blogger Rob said...

There's actually been some good dialogue over at Emergent What? recently. There's some serious disagreements, but I've been pleasantly surprised to see some of the critics coming across as -- well, there's no other way to say this -- like Christians in their conduct and respect for brothers and sisters whom they don't agree with.

I still stop by E-No every now and then, but I've decided to practice self-restraint and not comment anymore. I got tired of being misinterpreted (and seemingly deliberately misrepresented many times), falsely accused, and ignored if my comments were too biblically-based but not agreeing with them. If I thought I was actually doing some good over there, I'd keep at it, but after eight months or so...

And Kerri, I appreciate your comments. Yes, there are profane and judgmental pro-ec bloggers out there, and frankly, I'm embarrassed by them. I was somewhat surprised to see a comment from Chris P. on his own blog (he's QUITE anti-ec) where he uses profanity to describe Justin's Emergent What blog, so I guess it's not just emergents who like to cuss, after all. I wish we'd all grow up a little (or a lot).

Dan, of course, has been a good friend to meet online, and actually getting to spend time with him last summer (along with Jamie and Brother Maynard, who I've known much longer in the "real world") was a real treat. There are some good, credible voices online -- you just have to find them (I'd recommend Jamie and Brother Maynard for starters, and Dan has linked to them on this site).

Thu Dec 01, 12:18:00 a.m. 2005  
Blogger Rob said...

P.S. And I know Jamie's pastor really well -- I was his R.A. when he was a freshman in Bible college! He's a great guy who I really respect, but he's not "emerging". That has never been a relational impediment to either of us.

In fact, at times, he has encouraged some of the more emerging people in his church to have coffee with me (!) to talk about ecclesiology, etc. (When I still lived in Winnipeg, that is...)

Thu Dec 01, 12:21:00 a.m. 2005  
Blogger Grey Owl said...

Kerri - I hope I've not lumped you into those categories! Seriously, I think that it's folks like you that will be helpful to the EC; people who want to be honest critics but also see perhaps a need for what the EC is trying to do. I even would go so far as to say there's room IN a God-centered EC church for someone like you. But again, being EC or not isn't the point. It's as you say, keeping God central.

Jamie - nothing wrong with being pro-Canada! Especially after that treatment on the Daily Show...

I agree; Canadians (with the exception of Carla of E-No, who is from Onterio) seem to be much more open to the EC than Americans do. Perhaps it is because we as a culture are more liberal?

I also think it's interesting that Kerri mentioned the "stylistic externals" to the EC - I'm curious if that's all some people think it is? I know kerri doesn't but it could be the reason why there's so much misunderstanding...

Robby -I've been trying to be involved in the more heated sections over at E-What lately. It's been really great to see some new and familiar faces all interacting.

I think it's too bad that you don't comment at E-No anymore, as you seemed to have the respect of alot of them. That and ChrisP actually listened to you. Well, until the "research" incident...

I hope we can "Rendezvous" again some time in the future!

Thu Dec 01, 11:56:00 a.m. 2005  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Actually, if I am not mistaken, while Carla lives in Ontario, I believe she is American.

I am actually working on a post of patriotism vs. nationalism in Christian culture.

Peace,
Jamie

Thu Dec 01, 03:30:00 p.m. 2005  
Blogger kekoa said...

Oh, no. Dan-D. I've enjoyed our banter :) I'm glad to have these interactions with you!

Jamie, I haven't spent time on your blog, but I'm sure that I would find myself welcome there. It's good to be able to disagree peaceably! I think that some of the anti-ec groups I witness now just refuse to agree with anything the other person says..but if a friend said the same statment they'd be stumbling over with the praises for high orthodoxy. I see it both ways. It would be interesting to present myself under different names and say the same exact thing but be an emerger out one side of my mouth and a 5 sola's reformation gal out the other. LOL. That would be interesting ;)

The externals are what the focus can be on at times, but it is the externals that may be distracting from talking about some of the meatier stuff that is of concern to conservative Christians (including myself). However, my concerns are not limited to the EC, and at times they include myself! I'm a work in progress and I find that through talking to others I need to flesh out what I believe and why...and sometimes I change my belief.

As long as our countries have freedom of religion, we will have petty arguments that distract, distort, and derail our Christian walks.

MHO.

Christ with us,

Kerri

Thu Dec 01, 03:41:00 p.m. 2005  
Blogger Grey Owl said...

Jamie - well that makes sense. I look forward to your article. How was the trip?

Kerri - I dunno, if you start doing that it could get really confusing. What if you started fighting with yourself?

Sounds like you're in a good place overall. I'm glad to be a small part of your walk!

Thu Dec 01, 04:37:00 p.m. 2005  
Blogger Grey Owl said...

I fixed the links - they weren't working for some odd reason.

Fri Dec 02, 10:48:00 a.m. 2005  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Grey Owl & Kerri,

The articles is posted. I'd love to hear your views.

Peace,
Jamie

Fri Dec 02, 11:44:00 a.m. 2005  
Blogger Wanderer said...

Kerri - "As long as our countries have freedom of religion, we will have petty arguments that distract, distort, and derail our Christian walks."

Just out of curiosity, are you lamenting the future or speaking out against freedom of religion?

I like the fact that you specifically focus on the concept that the meat of the argument is found in centering the church around God. Way too frequently, especially on the site being referenced in Dan's post, I find too many people arguing about the minute details of worship style and etc, rather than addressing the actual core of the beliefs on either side of the argument.

Case in point: I have visited a number of these sites for a while, and as such I could tell you about a large number of cosmetic differences between the EC and its opponents. I couldn't tell you what the theological differences were. In fact I am not too certain that there are any. This concept disturbs me. It disturbs me, but is in a way gratifying.

I don't really mean that I approve, I am just being petty in my insinuation, but the underlying fact is that there is a problem with these wars that can be seen between the EC and other christians. The same that are seen between many other christian factions. That problem is that all of them have stopped focusing on us.

This isn't a problem to me, but should be seen as such from the other side. Since when was it more important to convert christians that did things a little differently than it was to reach out for those of us who didn't believe at all? When did the cosmetic trump the core? When did God say to stop worrying about the souls of the lost sheep and focus on belittling your brethren? I must have missed the memo.

Sat Dec 03, 09:08:00 p.m. 2005  
Blogger kekoa said...

Wanderer,

In a social structure where being a Christian could cost your life, I would imagine there would be less squabbling. However, some doctrines are very important to not mess around with. In these things, I believe strongly that we must stand up for those truths!

True story: Church in China meeting in a room of a house. Two armed men come in and announce that everyone in the room that is not willing to die for their faith has 30 seconds to clear out. Many leave and few stay. The armed men drop their guns and announce to those remaining that they were looking for a group of true believers to join with for prayer and worship.

I think things look different in a situation like that.

I hope that you are not getting the majority of your information about Christianity from blogs. I also hope you aren't getting your info from Christian TV stations, or even some churches!

Our country (U.S -- not sure where you are located) boasts that we are 80% Christian. less than 9% of evangelical Christians understand and believe the fundamentals of the Faith.

Some of the hypocresy you may see is due to immaturity in Christ to one degree or another. Some of it is due to "Christian in name only-ism" Some of it is due to zeal which rises stronger than Love. Some of it is due to conformity to the culture and desire to be accepted by the world.

Of course, a book could be written to further expand on all of those, but that is it in a nutshell.

BTW, may I ask you what your interest is in Christianity? You blog says your a pagan and a minister? Curious :)
(please excuse spelling errors, it's saturday -- my day off)

Sat Dec 03, 09:26:00 p.m. 2005  
Blogger Wanderer said...

My interest primarily is to gain wisdom wherever it might be found. I enjoy discussions on spirituality and find that frequently enough we aren't so different in those beliefs. My interest in Christianity is primarily academic, but I also like to observe the spiritual journey of almost any other individual who invites me to do so.

Sun Dec 04, 02:14:00 p.m. 2005  
Blogger Grey Owl said...

Wanderer & Kerri - glad to see some good dialogue happening while I was AFK. I agree, the emphasis on stylistic differences is getting no one anywhere. I hope to engage with some more critics in the future, hopefully onmore important issues than scented candles.

Wanderer - whatever the reason, I'm glad you keep engaging in the dicussion.

Tue Dec 06, 01:09:00 a.m. 2005  

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