Wednesday, December 07, 2005

Kids These Days

I love my job. The hours, the people, the location - it's a great place to be. For those of you who don't know, I run a drop-in centre in rural Manitoba. And it's great. I get to chat with some great teens about life, religion, God, and all that stuff. I've seen a few kids who were alienated by the church come to a saving knowledge of Jesus. I've been able to answer some of their questions that they were told not to ask, or, if not answer them, I've pointed them in a direction where they can ask the questions better. I never would have said I wanted to be an evangelist, but I have to admit that there's nothing I'd rather be doing right now.

Sometimes, though, parts of my job can be very difficult. Dealing with irate parents who want to know why the drop-in has not magically stopped their kids from doing drugs. Defending our mission from more conservative folks who feel that the youth should just "go to church with their parents and not be met where they're at." And then there's the youth themselves.

I'm not complaining, I'm just venting. If you don't want to know how bad it is out there, then go do something else. I wouldn't blame you.

Drugs really bother me. I mean sure, weed's everywhere, and it is a "gateway drug" - that is, it can lead to heavier drug use. The earliest age I've known a kid to start weed is younger than 12. I say that because 12 is the earliest age we allow, and some come to the centre for the first time at age 12 marijuana veterans. But I almost go limp with relief when a kid says that's all they're doing. There's so much worse out there these days, so much worse than what was available to our parents - not saying that your parents did that, of course.

The one that really bugs me is crystal meth. So easy to produce, so easy to find. For 100$ of ingredients you can make thousands in profit. I know for a fact that someone's selling it in the town where I work. The level of addiction and damage it does to the body is enormous - and it's cheap, easily affordable on the most modest of allowances.

It's also really dangerous because of how it makes you act. I've seen police tapes of teens on meth, and they're out of control. Police across North America have been forced to shoot people on meth because all other options are useless. In my Jiu-Jitsu club we had a class on crystal meth, and the instructors told us ,"If you're attacked by someone on meth, the normal rules don't apply. They won't feel pain. You punch them they'll shrug it off. You break their arm they'll keep swinging. If you want out you'll have to break their legs so they can't follow when you run away." I cringe when I think of that substance running through the veins of a 13-year-old.

another huge issue is promiscuity. One of my volunteers was chatting with a young girl of 12, who was in tears because her boyfriend of 14 had broken up with her. She was most upset because they had gone extremely far physically, which she thought would prevent him from leaving her. When she calmed down, she was expressing desire to find a new, older boyfriend with whom she could continue exploring the physical side of dating. Now I'm all for personal freedom and whatnot, but this is disgusting.

Even more concerning to me was listening to a group of 14 and 15 year old girls relate their sexual escapades with a series of men in their early to mid 20's. Just FYI for the non-Canadians in the room, Canada's age of consent is 14. Which no psychologist in the world will tell you is a healthy, fully developed age for children to begin having sex with people twice their age. The predators that take advantage of this law... you just wouldn't believe it. These young girls are being used, and there's no laws to protect them anymore.

And the church is busting its gut trying to stop gay marriage instead of this. Way to go, guys. Gotta prioritize, right?

Why am I venting about this? Well, for starters it's because then teens in our community are being more open with myself and our staff. This is a good thing, because now we are working on programs to combat this. I'm working with the RCMP and CFS to inform the parents of the community about the issues - sadly, many are blind to it. I'm also doing this because I know that some people assume these problems are confined to the cities. They're not. My wife once had a conversation with another YFC employee - one who worked in the city - who told her, "Oh, well the kids we get are inner city kids - you wouldn't understand what they're like." I really hope this attitude is not widespread.

I do feel fortunate, however, that I'm not going in this alone. I've got family, friends, and a small army of volunteers with me. And I also have Christ. Through him alone will anything be accomplished, and it's my prayer that I will be used to bring his hope and life to the kids I work with. Lord knows I can't do this without him.

I'm not really looking for anything here, I just needed to get this all out. Feel free to comment if you want, or if you've got similar experiences to share.

29 Comments:

Anonymous Anonymous said...

Hey bro,

I hear you. It is odd that the YFC person thought you wouldn't understand the inner city realities. If there is one thing we teach groups that come to our "inner city" neighbourhood is that the difference is about numbers. This stuff happens EVERYWHERE. In fact, until recently, crystal meth was well known as a rural drug.

What you share is what keeps me up at night too. Something needs to be done- something BIG. But I think it will require some radical thinking, some dynamic cross-church/organizational dialogue and partnership. Can it happen? YES. Will it happen? I don't know anymore.

Man, do we need to go for coffee soon!

Peace,
Jamie

Wed Dec 07, 06:25:00 p.m. 2005  
Blogger Cindy said...

Dan, I appreciate this look into your career and your heart. It helps me to know you, and know how to pray for you. Thank God for people like you and Jamie and the many others who work with these kids who need so much.

Wed Dec 07, 08:29:00 p.m. 2005  
Blogger kekoa said...

Dan-D,
what kind of lunatic "conservative" folks do you guys have up there in Canada?
(hee hee)

The church has a long rich history of meeting people where they are at. We have a gazillion such ministries in the midwest cities of the US, and I love reading my kids the stories of people like Katherine Booth and others that went against the status quo to reach the lost and hurting. You've run into a few conservatives who may be weak in their faith, but they don't speak for my conservative faith.

Parents for the most part are impossible to please and if their kids are messed up then they have loads of guilt, shame and hurt piled up on them. There are no drop-off centers for them!

As hard as it is, I think we all need to remember to see those "hard to love" adults through the eyes of Christ. I am speaking to myself here, too!

My work history is with troubled teens, too. I worked as a foster parent to a group home of throw-away teens and it is easier to love messed up kids then indignant adults!

Thanks for sharing your heart with us.

kerri

Wed Dec 07, 11:55:00 p.m. 2005  
Blogger Grey Owl said...

Jamie - Thanks. I thought this would resonate with you since we're in similar fields. I really don't know what that other YFC-er was about, but as far as doing something big... I dunno. What can we do to break through, so to speak? Maybe we are just going to have to do it one life at a time. But yes, beverage must happen soon.

Cindy - Thanks for the prayer. We need it out here. Just out of curiosity, what's the situation like in your neck of the woods?

Kerri - I hope I didn't come across like I was implying all conservatives are quite like that. If they were we wouldn't get any funding! BUt sometimes, yes, it is frustrating trying to justify what we do to people who think that the youth are just being stupid and rebellious. Arg. But I hear you - love of Christ and all that. Even when I want to slap them silly.

That's an interesting tidbit about your previous work. How long did you do that for?

Thu Dec 08, 12:40:00 a.m. 2005  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Grey Owl,

When I say we need something big, don't read the typical "event" big. Perhaps radical (in the non-trendy sense) would be more fitting. What I meant was that we need to see communities of Christians doing things that would, to many, seem unthinkable.

For example, we have been considering for several years developing a program by which urbanites (ie. teens, prostituties, etc.) would move in with a rural family, whose church would help provide job training, job, life skills, counselling, and above all community. Sure, this is risky, but this is the kind of things that needs to happen.

I think Kerri makes a very good point. I have been moderately troubled by many emergent folks talking about justice and the poor (which is good), but not truly engaging people in this context relationally.

I just saw the movie version of the musical "RENT". In one scene, one of the young characters, a budding documentary film maker, sees the police bullying a homeless women. He (with his friends) immediately starts filming, making the police nervous, thus leaving. However, before they can celebrate their "victory", the woman turns to them and says:

STREET LADY:
Who the f___ do you think you are?
I don't need no goddamn help
From some bleeding heart cameraman
My life's not for you to
Make a name for yourself on!

FRIEND:
Easy, sugar, easy
He was just trying to --

STREET LADY:
Just trying to use me to kill his guilt
It's not that kind of movie, honey
Let's go -- this lot is full of
Motherf___ing artists
Hey artist
You gotta dollar?
I thought not
_______________________

Too often we use the poor as means to prove our Christlikeness, to ease our conscience. That is why I moved into the inner city. Not because I am some selfless martyr, but because it exposes me for the fraud I too often am. True love for people means relocating our lives, reorienting them around the Other.

While I think ECers are moving in the right direction, they'd be wise not be overly critical of "conservative" Evangelicals until they realize how much such a commitment costs and have begun to pay the price.

Now, I KNOW that isn't what you were suggesting, but I felt it worth mentioning.

Peace,
Jamie

Thu Dec 08, 09:26:00 a.m. 2005  
Blogger Cindy said...

I did my college internship at the family court/juvenile detention center in our county. But, it's been a long time, so I'm way out of touch. It's probably typical. The worst of the drug usage and dealing - and consequent violence- is in the more densely populated inner city. It trickles out, of course. It seems that most of the meth labs that are found around here are rural. Montgomery isn't a huge city, under 300,000, so the drug use and crime could be a lot worse, however, last week there were 7 homicides in 6 days... It isn't Shangri-la.

Thu Dec 08, 10:18:00 a.m. 2005  
Blogger Grey Owl said...

Hmm, I posted a reply but it just vanished into cyberspace. What the heck?

Jamie - I really need to see Rent. That being said, I agree; it's difficult to truely engage with other - especially the poor - in a context that works and is truly genuine. I admire what you and your wife are doing; it's certainly not easy I'm sure.

Cindy - that's a surprisingly large amount of violence for an area your size. What's the gang situation like?

Thu Dec 08, 12:27:00 p.m. 2005  
Blogger Cindy said...

I can't give good numbers on gang related crime. It certainly accounts for a percentage. The amount is hard to gaugue since local government tends to try to squelch too much bad press. Some of the violence is more a matter of poverty, alcoholism/addiction, and unemployment. I'll clip any related articles I find and send them to you.

Thu Dec 08, 03:43:00 p.m. 2005  
Blogger Rob said...

Hey Dan-Owl Grey-D,

My first stop after seminary was a Christian-run juvenile detention centre in Kitchner ON. I saw a shift happening among the "residents" that was disturbing, to say the least.

The older kids at this facility (15-16 years old) were there primarily for repeat offences, being AWOL risks, or sometimes more violent crimes like assault.

The younger kids (12-13) were 90% there because of sexual crimes. Molestation of pre-schoolers, rape (at 12!?!), and things I won't even write about, they were so appallingly sadistic and deviant. There were many times I nearly puked (literally) when I would read their files and what crimes they had committed.

That was in the late 80's, and we all know that things have only gotten worse since then. The Christian high school in Victoria was the place where the cops were the most concerned about the drug use and selling, and (this will probably sound familiar, judging by your post) the parents either didn't want to hear about it, or loudly denied that it was happening. They were too busy singing the praises of Christian education and looking down on parents who put their kids in "worldly" secular schools.

I'm not trying to paint a depressing picture here, but only to point out that "there is nothing new under the sun" -- the problems I'm referring to were observed by me in 1988-92. Plus la change, plus la meme chose...

But I want to also point out that God has a way of working even in these kind of circumstances. And you'll be surprised, in the coming months, at how some of the people with the most "attitude" (Christian or otherwise) get apprehended by God, and will become some of your closest friends, supporters, and co-workers.

Been there. Seen/experienced it. Gave Him thanks for it.

Thu Dec 08, 04:35:00 p.m. 2005  
Blogger kekoa said...

Dan-D,
my background is education for those categorized by the state as emotionally and/or behaviorally disturbed.

I worked in behavior management for kids who often went into rages and needed restraint and transport to padded cells. Later after I had a baby and quit being in the workforce, I worked as a respite parent at the group foster home but had to quit when pregnant with number 2. We lived there 5 days a month to give the other team a break. We filled in and "babysat" from time to time.

Jamie,
I like what you said about us relieving our guilt by doing good works. We all spend time patting ourselves on the backs while God is perhaps rolling His eyes....

Anything we do that is of pure intent is by the Holy Spirit so what can we ultimately boast about, right?

Thu Dec 08, 05:04:00 p.m. 2005  
Blogger Grey Owl said...

Cindy - poverty, addiction and unemployment are epidemic here as well. It's astonishing what we have in common, sometimes...

Rob - I've spent time with kids who have been in and out of juvinial facilities myself, and I'll agree; it's hell. And the worst part is that the cycle of violence and darkness, if left unbroken, only continues to spiral out of control and inflict more pain elsewhere.

I was speaking to a youth pastor recently about bringing information to parents, a drug/promiscuity info night, that sort of thing. He told me that he tried running a "Drug-proof you kids" course at the church, and out of a town where there's 250+ kids in the high school, 3 parents showed up. 3!! And it's not just the kids from broken homes getting into trouble, either - crystal meth does not discriminate. I cannot comprehend that level of ignorance. I hope that something does change, though - these kids need all the help they can get. Thanks for your input - care to share any success stories from the juvinial hall?

Kerri - That's an incredible challenging field. I have a few friends/family members who have worked in that area. Same question to you: any stories in particular where light won out over darkness?

Thu Dec 08, 06:06:00 p.m. 2005  
Blogger Rob said...

Dan,

Not too many, frankly and honestly. I did have one guy phone me at work, about six months after he was released, to let me know that he'd finished high school after all, and was enrolling in college in the fall. Another guy phoned me in BC to say that he'd finished his sentence and was going back to finish high school as well. Did they become Christians? Not yet, or at least, not that I know of.

A couple of the older guys made professions of faith, but one at least ended up back in the clink about six months later, and didn't want to talk about where his spiritual life was at. The world these kids return to is harsh beyond what most of us can imagine, and (another pet peeve looming here) the average church youth group is completely incapable of reaching out to these guys, and most churches (and parents) would rather that they be somebody else's responsibility.

But from my early years in Victoria, here's a link to one story that still encourages me when I think of it:

Your Eyes Smile.

Thu Dec 08, 07:51:00 p.m. 2005  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Rob,

I agree that there is "nothing new under the sun" in a generalized way, but crystal meth is definately a phenomenon that is new in its bredth and severity.

Further, while you tell stories from the 80's, I recently read somewhere that 100 years ago, most teens hit puberty in the late teen, whereas today it can happen as early as 11.

I am not disagreeing with you, just want to be careful that we don't convince people to be complacent.

Peace,
Jamie

Thu Dec 08, 10:05:00 p.m. 2005  
Blogger Arthur Brokop II said...

your kids don't sound that different than my kids here on the Navajo Reservation. Up until last year Meth was actually legal here, some sort of loop hole in the Navajo Law about controlled substances. We just had a triple murder that was drug related, and a meth house was raided in the housing unit across the street from our church. We don't look like "inner city" anywhere, but we have a lot in common with that environment. Our Church has a very vibrant youth ministry, we host a master's commission group that is Native American, and does a great job of outreach. Kids everywhere are lost in the dark, and they need people like us to stand in the gap for them, shine the light, let them see some love. Blessings on your ministry.

Fri Dec 09, 09:17:00 p.m. 2005  
Blogger Hegemon said...

I know my shenanigans fly in Life or Something, but I bet they won't here, so try to trust my control.

I'm right now at work and bored out of my mind because I finished all the paperwork and such and am just waiting for the other instructor to get done with his boring-ass module so I can get up and present my boring-ass module. I read Wanderer's crap, I replied. I read Maryellen's crap, I didn't feel like getting into that one (arguing with Chris P is like running a race in the Special Olympics: Even if you win, you're still retarded.), so then I decided to cruise over to yours. Here's my thoughts on this post (the only one I've read, so if I'm mistaking contextual information, mea culpa):

1) My brother, my roommate, three or four of my best friends, my brother's roommate, everyone either one of them knows, and seemingly at least half the people on the planet smoke the Fruit of the Lawn. I have never, ever seen any damage to someone who only smokes marijuana. Personally, I don't smoke it because I didn't enjoy it when I tried it, but I see no reason why marijuana should be illegal on its own merits.

2) Out of the two- or three-digit number of people I know who smoke pot, maybe five or six of them do other illicit drugs. Given this experience it's pretty difficult to label it as a gateway drug. My theory on this is that since marijuana is the easiest drug to obtain; people who want to do drugs usually try it first before moving on to other things. If crystal meth were easier to sniff out than marijuana, and people had to know people in circles to be able to get marijuana, perhaps people would be calling crystal meth the gateway drug.

3) The negative feelings people have as a result of sex are due to societal repression. If no one ever told a girl that it was a Bad Thing(c) to have sex; a failed sexual relationship wouldn't cause any pain not found in a failed non-sexual relationship. I realize I have no proof, but there's no control group nor can there ever be, outside of isolating a child from the world until (physical, not mental/emotional) sexual maturity which is bound to cause psychological damage in and of itself.

4) I guess it's good that you help people, but I certainly hope you don't make religious participation a requirement for help. This Reason 4 why I don't donate to religious charities; overt or covert, there is always a demand, explicit or implicit, to comply with religious teaching. So, I certainly hope you would never withhold your advice or guidance to a youth who refuses to accept your faith (again, lacking contextual information I have no idea if the non-deluded would know who/what/where you were to begin with), and I'd certainly hope you don't let dogmatic indoctrination get in the way of solving real life problems. If they don't, and you're capable of rendering assistance to troubled youths without getting your bible in the door, so to speak, good on ya.

5) Crystal meth is a bitch. Similar chemicals were used by some African and Polynesian warriors resisting European colonialism before battle, and some powers had to resort to some really high-caliber weapons because the ammunition of the day just wasn't getting the job done against the infused.

Fri Dec 09, 09:27:00 p.m. 2005  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

MC,

I'd like to weigh in on your 5 points. I disagree, but due to the nature of the net, I want to state up front that I am not in raging disagreement. That being said:

1) The truth is that weed is made out to be far worse by the media than it really is (chemically). The argument can easily be made that tobacco is far more destructive than it is (this is a comparison, not an anti-smoking ad, so don't jump me on this one). The gateway drug theory has some merit, but it clouds the real issues at times. (Note, I am not suggesting that it should be legal, nor that it is not a problem).

However, Grey Owl is referring to its use by troubled teens. I would hope that you would agree that, for example, drinking alcohol responsibly is fine, but put in the hands of an abused and confused kid, it is dangerous.

Combine this with the intensity of teen peer dynamics, which are considered some of the strongest, most difficult to deal with, where doing the "taboo" is a mark of authority. With this reality (and others) weeds is almost always a step on a path to thing more damaging. You will need to trust those of us who see its impact everyday that the scenario is NOT the same as your brother or friends.

2) You are probably right, to a point, on this one, though I think it oversimplifies the issues, in addition to failing to understand the context.

3) If you were to read one of the archived posts on my blog (called "Kinsey & the Duality of Perversion"), you would see that I agree with you to a point. Societal, or perhaps more accurately, religious repression of sexuality has done vast damage to our culture (at times even contributing to its worse excesses). This, I believe, has NOTHING to do with true Christianity, but an abuse of it.

That being said, in the context Grey Owl is speaking, I am afraid it really is bullshit. I don't use this word casually. Grey Owl, nor most of the people I work with, would ever call sex a "bad thing". In fact, one of our core motivations in protecting kids from making damaging decisions, is that we value sex so much.

I can't imagine where you came up with the ideas that "a failed sexual relationship wouldn't cause any pain not found in a failed non-sexual relationship", but that is an unfounded, fringe concept that most people know to be ridiculously false, especially where kids are concerned. Live with prostitutes as your neighbours for a few years, as I do, and I am confident you would see how wrong this idea is.

4) I think I know Grey Owl enough to say that he would never withhold love or care or help from anyone based on religious agendas. I understand your concern in this regards, as I have seen it abused far too often as well.

That being said, there is a great difference between limiting access to help for religious purpose; dogmatic indoctrination; etc. and serving others in motivation to ones faith, believing that it is worth sharing (not forcing or manipulating). I am sure we will disagree on this one, but it holds very little differences to the reasons that motivated you to comment here.

5) Crystal meth is, indeed, a bitch. Putting aside obscure references to African or Polynesian warriors (in point of fact, CM first appear in 1919 in Japan, though variations similar have exsisted elsewhere), it is a terrifying thing to confront face to face.

My aunt, who is a leading city official, financially well-established with a great home and a good husband, fears that her only son might try meth at a party. He's a good kid, but with meth, addiction can be formed instantly at one try. It is a fair fear.

Now, add to this the world of teens from broken and troubled lives. Add to this the violent emotions held under the surface which, given the right drug, could come bursting out. It is a hateful drug, worthy of the strictest restrictions and consequence for distribution.

Peace,
Jamie


5) Crystal meth is a bitch. Similar chemicals were used by some African and Polynesian warriors resisting European colonialism before battle, and some powers had to resort to some really high-caliber weapons because the ammunition of the day just wasn't getting the job done against the infused.

Sat Dec 10, 09:31:00 a.m. 2005  
Blogger Hegemon said...

Fair enough. I appreciate the respectful manner in which you disagree and I see merit in what you say.

To clarify, when you say gateway drug, people take it to mean "normal people try marijuana, and as a result they move on to heavier drugs/crime/etc", but what I meant is that it is my theory that marijuana does not lead to those things, as much as it is the first step of one allready headed toward those things. A better phrasing in my opinion would be an "indicator drug" because it may be a sign that someone is headed to those things, but not because of marijuana.

Also, I think you took me out of context a bit. What I said was that if it were not for the societal/religious repression of sex, there'd be no additional pain to a failed sexual relationship than you'd find in a failed non-sexual relationship. This is my theory. As I pointed out, it's impossible to prove for the impracticability of establishing a control group, and impossible to disprove by counterexample because those people you've witnessed were not outside the confines of societal/religious repression.

Other than those two items I think we're pretty much on the same page. I appreciate your respectful dialogue and hope that I have provided the same to you.

Mc

PS Grey Owl feel free to kick me out of the comments at any time you please. Trust me, I won't take it personal.

Sat Dec 10, 11:16:00 a.m. 2005  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

MC,

No worries. Actually, regarding sexuality, I understand your position, but still felt strongly that I disagree. I think it is already proven to be false, especially where young people are concerned. However, we can agree to disagree.

On the gateway drug issue, I actually think we are on the same page, more or less.

Peace,
Jamie

Sat Dec 10, 11:37:00 a.m. 2005  
Blogger Grey Owl said...

Rob - thanks for the link, I'll check it out.

Maryellen - Yeah, that sounds like us up here. I guess
we aren't in such different places after all. Many of
our kids are native canadians who have been placed in
foster homes in the area, so there's alot of

Mc - Thank you for being so respecful and open to
conversation. I'll briefly address a few of your
points, and hopefully my Nyquil-addles brain won't
trip me up too much...

1/2. You responded to Jamie, "marijuana does not lead
to those things, as much as it is the first step of
one allready headed toward those things. A better
phrasing in my opinion would be an "indicator drug"
because it may be a sign that someone is headed to
those things, but not because of marijuana" - that's
actually a very good way of putting it. And you're
right in thinking I wasn't saying that every person
who tries it will shoot heroin into their eyeballs.

3. I think that's an interesting theory re: failed
seuxal vs failed non-sexual relations and the societal
repressions therin... but as you say, it'd be
impossible to prove either way. I think I'm with Jamie
on this one, but let me clarif - I think that in the
studies I've read on teen sexuality, there is much to
indicate that engaging in sex (casual, relational or
otherwise) as a teen is undergoing such vast changes,
issues that would be more easy for an adult to shrug
off are devastating to them. While I'm not saying it
would be impossible for a teen to have a healthy
sexual relationship - indeed, the marriage age for
centuries was in the arly teens - I'm just saying that
in our hypersexed culture there's alot of damage that
can and does occur to our young people.

4. We actually discourage our volunteers from brining
up religious dialogue with a youth if they don't have
a close relationship with them. I personally believe
that the message of Christ is way too important to
treat like a bludgeon. We offer the gosepl with care,
and if a teen isn't interested they get the same help
and care as the rest of them. That's something I've
worked hard to stress with the people I work with, and
while I have found a great deal of them are interested
in spiritual things and open to talking about them,
more of them have been hurt by the church than not.
Mostly, I listen.

5. I prefer "cast-iron bitch", personally.

MC + Jamie - great dialogue you guys. And MC - I doubt
I'll ever have reason to kick you out. I appreciate
the ":reigning in of the shenanigans!" Stop by anytime.

Sat Dec 10, 12:17:00 p.m. 2005  
Blogger Hegemon said...

The thing is, to be frank, I think we have to be talking about female teens here, which I know nothing about, cause you remember how it was to be a male teen... Getting some was the goal of a relationship, not a cost of it. So it's difficult for me to theorize about pain of a sexual relationship gone wrong; when I was a kid, the only failed relationship is one that DIDN'T lead to sex. So I suppose maybe I lack the background necessary to make that distinction.

Sat Dec 10, 01:06:00 p.m. 2005  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

MC,

Interesting point. While females (generally) respond more emotionally to the negative impact of sexual relationships, I believe the negative impact is equally (perhaps greater) on males, even if they feel they've "scored".

Peace,
Jamie

Sat Dec 10, 04:11:00 p.m. 2005  
Blogger Hegemon said...

Well, as far as everyone else goes I can't speak for them, but as far as I go I have never regretted sex. Free sex, anyways.

Sat Dec 10, 04:18:00 p.m. 2005  
Blogger Wanderer said...

MC,

Some well expressed points. I tend to agree, and won't point out the minor areas of disageement by point because, well, I tend to agree.

I admit to being somewhat surprised to find your comments here, but since Grey Owl comments on mine, I imagine it would happen sooner or later. On this particular topic, given the points you raise, I am sure I am not the only one who is glad you did.

Sat Dec 10, 04:28:00 p.m. 2005  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

MC,

Again, I am not sure regret determines the nature or quality of an experience. Please understand, I am not moralizing.

On the issue of sex, I believe it is, in every instance, a spiritual encounter, thus not to be entered into lightly. This stems from seeing it as a sacramental act. I do not expect others to embrace this view, nor do I think it can be proved (or disprove) imperically.

In the end, looking throughout history, I have never seen casuality with sexuality to be beneficial. However, as I know you agree with, the repression of sexuality, both historically and today, has been equally damaging.

Wanderer,

I am curious as to why you said:

"On this particular topic, given the points you raise, I am sure I am not the only one who is glad you did."

I am very interested.

Peace,
Jamie

Sat Dec 10, 05:57:00 p.m. 2005  
Blogger Wanderer said...

"Wanderer,

I am curious as to why you said:

'On this particular topic, given the points you raise, I am sure I am not the only one who is glad you did.'"


I said it because I meant it. If you are in fact curious about what I was saying, I will paraphrase. I am glad he offered his two cents. I think others are as well.

Sun Dec 11, 11:46:00 a.m. 2005  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Wanderer,

Sorry I was unclear. I didn't mean to ask why you said it, but more specifically why you were glad he said it- as in, what was it about what he said that was important, that was otherwise unsaid.

Peace,
Jamie

Sun Dec 11, 07:30:00 p.m. 2005  
Blogger Wanderer said...

I am sorry, as above indicated, I obviousy didn't understand the specific meaning of your question. I was glad he said it because he presented an interesting view on the situation that the rest of us hadn't presented. Therefore he assisted the forum. As opposed to the fact that as a proposed atheist he might (if he were not the MC I know) have presented a much more antagonistic view, sans valuable point.

Sun Dec 11, 09:51:00 p.m. 2005  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Wanderer,

Ah, ok, I understand. Then I too am glad he weighed in.

Peace,
Jamie

Mon Dec 12, 09:13:00 a.m. 2005  
Blogger Grey Owl said...

Me three. The conversation was enriched by his joining.

Besides, what's the point of agreeing all the time? That's no fun!

Mon Dec 12, 10:53:00 a.m. 2005  

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